ive been doing power shrugs and heavy lat pulldowns but im not seeing the results i want any ideas or better workouts to try thanks

Hey bro, try this routine:

Back
Deadlift
Lat Pulldown (or weighted pull ups)
Seated Cable Row
Bent Over Barbell Row
Shrugs

Dave Draper's Mass Blast Back Training Workout # 1

Medium-wide grip bentover barbell row, warm-up x15, 5 sets x 10-8-6-6-4
Wide grip pulldown, warm-up x15, 4x8-10
Seated lat row, 4x10-8-6-6 supersetted with
Pullover (stiff arm or bent arm), your choice depending on shoulder structure and health, 4x10-6-6-6

REMARKS

The Bentover Barbell Row:
The barbell row is a powerful systemic movement that, like squats and deads, puts demand on the total body. Build your muscle and might over an extended period with minor weight increments and solid well-formed reps. Small thrusts are okay, but will take their toll on the low back which bears the extreme load of the highly stressed fulcrum. Be aware. Let the lumbar and erectors build in power as you slowly progress. Choose a shoulder-width stance, with your hands grasping the bar 8-12 inches to the left and right of each shoulder. Keep your back flat and rest your ribcage somewhat on the quads for some support to help relieve low back overload. Pull bar to the chest at a medium speed: high chest works upper back, mid chest - mid back, low pull toward gut - low back. Find your favorite target or vary as needed. Deep breath, stay tight. Major work, hard hat area. For more on bentover barbell rows: http://davedraper.com/article27-bentover-rows.html

Medium-Wide Grip Pulldown:
Positioned directly below the overhead pulley with your arms near fully extended, pull the bar to your chin or just below as you look upward. Your back should be arched, your chest straining toward the bar with your elbows back, not forward, all positioned to fully recruit the entire lat complex - width and length.

Allow a sufficient lean and tug to accomplish your well formed reps, but no excessive thrusts. Don't cheat - no momentum - you loose. Feel, locate, pump, burn and grow.

If chins are your challenge these days, by all means do them instead.

Seated Lat Row or Long Pull (exercise 1 of superset):
The knees are out of the way, your favorite close grip handle is extended fully forward as you reach forward. Now pull the handle tightly into the waist as you arch your back to contract the rhomboids, ending in a seated upright position - very slight 5-10% lean. Very nice, have fun with the purposeful negative. No thrusting, no momentum - strictly muscle power and form. This is to be supersetted with your stiff arm or bent arm pullovers.

Pullovers (exercise 2 of superset):
The stiff arm pullover can be performed with a barbell or a dumbbell. It's a feel-good power stretch that engages the lats, the underside of the bis and tris and minor pec as it puts the rotator cuff through its ranges. Longitudinal abdominal muscles come into play to stabilize the torso.

Ok. You're lying on your back, head on one end of the bench, your feet up on the other end and a dumbbell or barbell is grasped in your hands straight overhead - your starting position. Now, take in a deep breath as you slowly lower the dumbbell with stiff arms/straight arms (elbows locked) behind your head till your arms are in line with your torso - or, parallel to the floor - now reverse the motion and return to the starting position, exhaling as you do. Pause momentarily and repeat. Great stretch, great lat pump, great relief movement that promotes posture awareness. Lots of blood circulating oxygen and nutrients to Wake up, Stimulate, Revive and Refresh.

This routine is to be performed twice a week.

Once a week at the end of your heavy leg workout, add 4 sets of power deadlifts, warmup x15, 5 sets x 10-8-6-4 reps, incrementing each set enough to make it tough, but don't draw blood.

Adds sweep, muscle mass and power packs the body.

Back Workout for Outer and Lower Lats

Henrik from Denmark has been lifting for the last ten of his thirty years. At 6'5" and 255 muscular pounds, he's looking for greater mass in his back, particularly the outer and lower lats. Henrik (do you mind if I call you "The House?"), have you tried bent over rows with railroad tracks, or wide grip chins with a Volkswagen hanging from your waist?

I'm being a wise guy, but heavy rows and weighted chins are the two primary exercises for what you seek. In fact, here's a list of those that should be included in your workouts as you continue on your big back journey. I've taken into consideration that there are many readers of different training levels who will value exercise description.

WEIGHTED WIDE GRIP CHINS
Starting from a fully extended hanging position, pull the body up to the chin, deliberately arching and contracting the lats throughout. Lower slowly, extend, and continue. Form is everything, pure and controlled. Lat contraction is your purpose, not going up and down roughly any way you can. Here we have lats totally engaged, outer and lower. (Pulldowns work well, but chins are merciless: no possibility of cheating without silly body contortions.) After a warm-up set, hang an appropriate weight from your waist using a strap or belt, to give you a 12, 10, 8, 6 rep sequence. Not everyone is remarkable in chinning. Give it your committed best and you may develop remarkable lats. Added attractions are bicep peak, grip strength, linear abs and minor pec action.

CHINS BEHIND THE NECK
This modification shifts the resistance from the lats primarily to the inter-muscular activity of the upper back and deltoids. Not your target, but not bad. Good alternative on those rare slump days when change is sweet.

CLOSE GRIP PULLDOWNS
This pulley movement has a great appeal and serves well as an off day antagonist superset movement (example: dumbbell inclines with close grip pulldowns). Full range of motion from extension to contraction. Upper lat and mid back respond well to this good feeling movement. An alternative worth its weight.

SEATED LAT ROWS
These "low pulls" are a loveable exercise. Nice positioning, energizing catlike stretching and extending, followed by might in the controlled contraction. The reliable 12, 10, 8, 6 sequence with intense muscle work, 55 mile per hour pace, tight arched contraction, no pointless leaning back or dangerous excessive forward lean. Mid back and low lat sweep are the direct targets of this all-time standard.

BENT OVER ROWS
If the back was a domain, bent over rows would be king. Performed with the Olympic bar, hands gripped collar to collar, this monster movement provides mass, power and width. Sounds good to me. Warm up, set your groove and focus on five sets. You'll notice I like a 15 (warm-up), 12, 10, 8, 6 rep sequence with the appropriate weight increases. The groove you set will determine the range of back involvement. Bringing the bar from the hanging position to mid chest hits high across the back and shoulder cage. Pulling the bar to the mid waist with an arched back contraction promotes muscle growth in the mid and low back with specific low lat involvement. Now you've got it. Be wise, keep a log with comments and calculations.

STIFF ARM PULLOVER
If you like supersetting, a stiff arm pullover between sets is gratifying and productive. A moderate+ weight allows you to stretch and revives the muscle cells and adds immensely to upper lat building. Keep the secondary pullovers at 6-8 reps.

REVERSE GRIP BARBELL ROW
Lower lat sweep is accomplished with this unique and compact movement. Performed with a bent bar, close grip, pull the bar tight to the waist, arching the back to engage full low back, low lat muscle mechanics. Moderate weight allows safest and surest articulation of this demanding form movement. Sets of 6-8 match the demand.

ONE ARM DUMBBELL ROWS
This potent exercise stands alongside barbell rows in mass and power building seriousness. Executed with the same intensity, they are wisely done as alternatives to the wide grips. Stabilized in a powerful tripod stance - none of this knee on bench stuff - one arm rows remove the load from the lower back, enabling you to tough your way through lumbar overload. Relief in this overworked area is priceless. In all your exercises focus, form, and practice yield perfection.

There are a variety of one arm cable exercises for pumping and creatively working the lats, especially the lower lats, that can be brought into play as your perceive their value. They are often best for feel, pump, change of pace and let-up. Enjoy them.

Henrik, you're well along in your bodybuilding knowledge and experience. From this block and tackle repertoire you can form your workouts over the glorious years ahead.

Here are some random suggestions for reference:

Work the back 2 times per week.

Choose 3 or 4 movements per workout, 4 if you're a gorilla and if you are back prioritizing, that is, working your back exclusively in your back day.

5 sets per exercise using a 15, 12, 10, 8, 6 sequence where suitable.

Recognize primary and secondary muscle involvement. Back work is primarily pulling: muscle extension under fire - big demand on bicep insertions. Take this into consideration.

Work with intensity, instinctively maxing weight or reps, keeping your eyes on the clear line defining excess and overtraining, know your moods and motivators. Coax yourself into heavy workouts, but don't plunder your stores. Back off every other workout, save doubles or singles for every third or fourth week.

Remember deadlifts as a supportive exercise, performing 4 sets x 8-10 constructive, therapeutic reps. One or two workouts per week after legs, or 6-8 w.o. per month for torso protection, resistance and much, much more. Deadlifts are, along with squats and bent bar curls, my favorite exercise. I'm reluctant to include them in a workout with an accent on power because of the already heavy load on the lower back, considering bent over rows are king. As training goals get reorganized, deadlift workouts can be accentuated. Heavy deadlifts are systemic muscle builders, but they can drain the body for days.

This is what I'm considering for my next back workout. After my usual warm-up, I'm gonna do some weighted chins, then go into wide grip bent over rows, supersetted with pullovers, followed by seated lat rows, supersetted with moderate dumbbell shrugs. Next time I work chest, I'm supersetting dumbbell inclines with close grip overhead pulldowns with my grip reversed. The rest is up to you.

Henrik's Big Back Lat Workout

MASS BLAST #2

Ok folks, here's my favorite Mass Blast Back workout. It's a high volume routine with basic exercises, designed to put slabs of muscle on your outer and lower lats. The routine combines Dave Draper's advice with my own personal experience.

The workout:

Straight sets (rest 1 1/2 minutes between sets)

Lat-pulldown to the front (wide parallel grip), 4 sets of 12, 10, 8, 6
T-bar rows, 4 sets of 12, 10, 8, 6
One arm dumbbell rows, 4 sets of 10, 8, 6, 6

Superset (rest 1 minute between each superset)

Incline pulley rows, using v-handle, 4 sets of 10, 8, 8, 8
supersetted with
Dumbbell pullover across bench, 4 sets of 10, 8, 8, 8


Deadlifts (done either after back or after leg workout)
Alternate these 2 routines:
4 sets of 10-12 reps using medium weight or,
5 sets of 12, 10, 6, 4, 2 using heavy weight for power

Remarks:

Remember to FEEL your back muscles work on all exercises. If you can't feel your back muscles working, you're using too much weight. This is bodybuilding, not weightlifting. The purpose here is to get the back muscles to do as much work as possible, not to lift as much weight as possible. It's two different things. And always be in control of the weight on the negative part of the movement, never just drop the weight.

On the straight sets, increase the weight on each set. Go heavy, but never at the cost of correct exercise form. A little bodythrust on the last couple of reps is ok.

On the supersets only increase the weight between the first and the second set. Use the same weight on sets 2-4.

At the end of this routine you will have a fantastic pump all over your back.

Hope you like it!

Henrik "The House"

BRUCE'S FIT & LEAN # 2

I like to think of my back as having several distinct sections and will work first according to what is lagging most. For me, it's my midback so I would this first, but that will vary with each person.

Warmup - 5-10 minutes on any cardio of your choice (I like running on the treadmill or doing stairstepper)

MIDBACK
Behind the neck chins
- 3 sets of 12 reps (or as many as you can get right now)
Cable Rows - 4 sets of 12 reps

LATS
Front Pulldowns or Chins
- 4 sets of 10-12 reps
supersetted with
Stiff-arm Pulldowns - 4 sets of 12-15 reps
Barbell or DB Pullovers (or Pullover machine)
3 sets of 12 reps

UPPER TRAPS
Barbell or DB shrugs (if needed)
- 3 sets of 10

Exercise Notes:

Behind the Neck Chins - Use a shoulder width grip or a little wider. Include little or no pause at the bottom of the exercise.

Cable Rows - Instead of using the "V" attachment, use two regular handle grips (from a cable machine) and focus on squeezing the scapulae at the end of the pull backwards. In the forward stretch, don't let your arms go completely straight (in other words, don't let the elbows lock), which will keep the tension on the midback

Front Pulldowns - Use a neutral (palms facing each other) grip and don't let your arms lock out at the top of the movement. Focus on the lats doing the work

Stiff-Arm Pulldowns - Done standing, with a regular pulldown bar. Use a shoulder width or slightly narrower grip. I like to lean a forward into this exercise and focus on making the lats and scapulae do the work. The arms are like levers. You will probably use a lighter weight (I currently use between 45 and 65lbs)

Barbell or DB Pullovers - Though this is thought of a chest exercise, I feel it more in my lats, so I've included it here.

Shrugs - Lean forward when doing these and pause for a 2-3 seconds at the top and use a quick twitch at the bottom of the shrug.

Rest Intervals:

I generally don't time my rest intervals exactly, but probably take between 45 - 60 seconds. If I'm working with someone else, we go right after each other is finished, so this is a guess.

Bruce